On Tue, Apr 26, 2011

September 2, 2011

 

I was happy to be a part of the conversation tonight. I want to say that If you
cannot get consensus on doing the project this way or the faculty doesn allow
it, then I will have to say that I request the project not go through at all. It
is rather a difficult thing to monitor whether this occurs or not. I would like
a letter stating with each student signing this as an agreement to honor my
request to eliminate the unethical micro section of the Capstone project that
unethically forces me to be a subject against my will. If everyone does
not agree then the project needs to stop period. I have now put this in the
hands of the students to do the right thing.

I think that this very letter can be included in the project as why this part of
the project was not completed.

I would like every student to provide me a copy of their report.

i would like the poster project to not have my picture on it and a made up name n lieu of mine.

This is how I would like it done please get back to me on this.

Eli PaintedCrow

 

 

The students voice

September 2, 2011

Ms. PaintedCrow & Anu,

 

I hope you are both well. Ms. PaintedCrow, thank you for sharing so much of yourself, your spirit and your truth with us tonight. Copied on this e-mail are fellow students who have been working to organize students to build and support this movement. Please know that we gathered 186 students at our meeting and that your words moved a whole room - a whole school.

 

Here's our plan of action:

 

Right now, I am sitting with a number of student organizers to send out correspondence to students. Our message to students (that we will forward to you as soon as it is written - in the next few minutes) will be saying EXACTLY what you mentioned below, in addition to a sum up from this meeting and additional next steps.

 

Next steps for students include:

 

1. Urging students to organize their own Capstone groups to get everyone on board to remove the micro section of their individual assignments - Capstone groups who have confirmed to do so will be reporting back to Alexis Diaz (student organizer cc'ed here) by Friday @ 5PM. we hope to have consensus from all 30+ capstone groups by Friday and will report back to you.

2. Filling out the following online petition: http://tinyurl.com/5sm784x - a number of us are doing a ton of outreach tomorrow (wednesday) make this happen.

3. Corresponding with faculty with a brief recap for tonight, urging them to create a community forum so that students can engage with them now that students are better informed (and have heard from you)

4. After speaking with you, our group collectively donated $394 - we are urging students to donate more money (and know this wont be an issue) = we are ready and willing to arrange all accommodations for you to be here in case administration is not prepared to do this.

 

Are we missing anything? Please let us know. we are sending you much support and love. Please know that we will be sure to forward you all correspondence.

 

Thank you is not enough.

 

 

April 26, 2011

September 2, 2011

From: Wen-Jui Han <wh41@columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 6:30 PM
Subject: Letter to Students re: Capstone
To: SSW-CAPSTONE@cuvmc.ais.columbia.edu

Dear Students
We are writing to address unsubstantiated claims of ethical concerns related to the 2010-2011 Capstone Project. We are stunned and saddened by assertions about the ethical nature of some of its dimensions. We will continue to seek a meeting with students who have lodged these claims and with Ms. PaintedCrow. We have asked for time during an upcoming student town hall and have been told that it is for students only. Thus, we are left with this means of communication to provide all students with facts surrounding the Capstone Project, which is a requirement for graduation. We hope that you will take the time to learn the facts and then attempt to discern the difference between facts and a narrative that is emerging on Facebook and other sites. We do not wish to see your degrees devalued as you leave the School.

What is the purpose of the Capstone Integrative Project?
The purpose of the Capstone Project is to provide an opportunity for students to integrate their social work knowledge across years of study and areas of specialization. The heart of every Capstone Project is a complex narrative in which policy, programming, administrative, and clinical practice issues converge. This year, the Capstone Committee after much deliberation decided to develop a Capstone assignment based on the book, The Lonely Solider: The Private War of Women Serving in Iraq, authored by Helen Benedict (2009).

The Faculty Capstone Committee represents the faculty, all of who were briefed about the Project at the outset and participate in the Kick-Off and closing activities. The Committee has been committed to developing a project that engages students in critical thinking around important issues of racism, sexism, oppression, justice, and diversity. Based on comments the Committee has received from many students over the past few weeks, it is clear that many of you have found the Capstone to be an enriching experience.

Why was The Lonely Soldier was chosen as the focus of the Capstone Project?
Many members of the faculty have been acquainted with Professor Benedict’s work for several years. A highly regarded journalist at Columbia University, Helen Benedict is known for her commitment to issues of social justice and to those that pertain to the military. The Lonely Soldier is an award-winning nonfiction book that has received a Ken Book Award from the National Alliance of Mental Illness. From the early Capstone planning stages, the Committee has been in contact with Professor Benedict. The Committee has engaged in conversations with Service Women's Action Network members. Each of the narratives featured in The Lonely Soldier is complex and serious. Each narrative provides an opportunity to examine issues of policy, programming, administrative procedures and clinical practice. The Capstone Committee was deliberative in the selection of Ms. PaintedCrow's narrative as the focus of this year’s project. It was expected that The Lonely Soldier would raise questions, compel critical thinking, and require self-reflection while stimulating multilevel analysis and synthesis.

Was it ethical to not seek Ms. PaintedCrow's permission to use her story as written and published by Helen Benedict?
Ms. Painted Crow is a public figure. We have heard and read that some students dismiss the fact that Ms. PaintedCrow’s story is public information. Ms. PaintedCrow consented to be interviewed and to have her story enter the public domain. Ms. PaintedCrow opted to use her real name. Other women whose stories appear in the book chose to not reveal their identity. She signed off on the final version of her chapter after requested revisions were made. Ms. PaintedCrow and the other women whose accounts appeared in the book participated in the development of the material fully knowing that their accounts would be public information. For those with an interest in the ethics of using The Lonely Soldier, you should know that Dean Nick Lemmon of the Columbia University School of Journalism, widely regarded as an expert in matters pertaining to ethics and journalism, has offered to be part of the discussion – to clarify the ethical and legal bounds related to accounts published about living public figures.

We acknowledge that Ms. PaintedCrow has reported distress upon learning that the Capstone assignment was developed based on Helen Benedict’s chapter of her story. This is truly unfortunate.

The use of published narratives by students and instructors to further educational goals is both ethical and good pedagogy. For many years, the CUSSW HBSE course used a non-fiction book, Random Families, which chronicled the lives and circumstances of an extended family in the Bronx. Real names and events were described. We have also used a book, The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down, based on the narratives of a Hmong family living in Merced California. These are just two of the many wonderful books that chronicle the lives of individuals, families, and communities that highlight and spur the examination of the issues. The individuals who are interviewed for these publications give explicit consent in order for their stories to move into public domain for public use. It is not incumbent upon the reader to seek permission of these individuals to use this published material for discussion nor is it incumbent upon the reader to check whether the individual approves of their portrayal in the book.

We have read students’ interpretations of the NASW Code of Ethics to contend that the assignment is unethical. Please remember that Ms. PaintedCrow is not a client. She is public figure who chose to make a version of her story public domain.

Moving Forward
We are concerned by the decision to speak with Ms. Eli PaintedCrow and to decline or postpone the several requests from faculty to meet. We hope that there is not a rush to judgment without full information. We hope that professional comportment will prevail. We hope that students will not feel coerced into one narrative or another and that all feel free to examine the facts as they complete their assignment. We are eager to meet and discuss the issues with those who have voiced concerns.

In good faith,

Wen-JuiHan
PeggyO’Neill
MarionRiedel
Fred Ssewamala

 

 

April 26, 2011

September 2, 2011

 

Dear Columbia Faculty:

 

I am writing to all of you to ask why I am being patronized, dismissed and disrespected knowing that a huge mistake has been made and continues to grow. I want you to know that I am now seeking legal counsel on this matter as now you are infringing on my right to speak with the students privately.  Why do you wish to monitor my emails as though I was a terrorist or something?

 

I have asked to be flown there immediately to address this situation and Marion has stated that the university cannot pay for my hotel for so many days. She also said that students would not be around for me to speak with them. After talking with them I understand that this is the week they are all around even if they have to work in the field. Is it the practice of faculty members to tell lies? DO NOT PATRONIZE ME! Do you think this matter is not important enough to address it professionally? You are asking the students to be professional yet you dismiss any productive communication that might take place and proceed to ask the students to violate our personal communication.  I have been asking to be there to get this resolved quickly and yet this is no response from the faculty. 

 

Is my person of any significance to this university or am I just an uneducated Native Woman who should be used to being exploited for the betterment of the whole? After all, academics know what is good for my class of people, right?  Colonialism still happens, I see, as I am the experiment for 400 students. Did the committee have a protocol for such an experiment that would see to my safety?

 

I am told that the students are willing to take away your university responsibility to fly me there so that they can deal with this situation. I plan to accept this flight seeing that they are being very professional about this whole thing; they are not remaining silent about this violation; they are practicing what you taught them. Is it wrong for them to do the right thing?

 

 If you want to know what I wrote or said to them then perhaps you should ask me for that information. What you are doing is divisive and splitting. I am outraged at the continued dismissal I am receiving from you and your faculty.

 

 Again, if you will not fly me there immediately then I will accept the flight from the students and hope that you will have the integrity to reimburse them. I’m sure that the students will find accommodations for me as well. Perhaps I can stay with one of them and have a greater opportunity for learning. I am open to that.

 

This could have been resolved through conversation and communication, as Marion put in one of her emails. However, it seems that I do not deserve the respect to receive that. I continue to be violated as this grows. Now my spirit and my being is being raped by an institution designed to put helpers into the field.

 

I do have PTSD and it is being triggered greatly by this faculty's actions (or non actions should I say). This damage to my being continues and I can only guess it may be out of fear, I'm not sure. If it is so then I put before you the same question that I put before the students. Will your fear not allow you to do the right thing?

 

I may not be an academic but I am a human being and I did not like being patronized by Marion and now dismissed by you. Do not assume to know what is respectful to me without asking me what that looks like. Your letter to the students is offending and this wound continues to grow.

 

 How will all of you make this right? If you cannot answer that then I will seek legal counsel to answer that question. I am not going away and I will not be silent. I am tired of being oppressed and treated as a lower class individual worthy of dissection without my permission. You are again intervening in my life without my permission. What do you not understand here? Closing this letter in my culture’s way, “I am Eli PaintedCrow and I have spoken”.

 

Eli PaintedCrow

 

Eli PaintedCrow

SFC, US Army, Ret.

Advocate for soldiers
Advocate for Peace

 

 

Dean Takamura

September 2, 2011

From: Jeanette C. Takamura <jtakamura@columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 8:52 AM
Subject: Capstone
To: jct8@columbia.edu
Cc: mr108@columbia.edu, wh41@columbia.edu, mmo34@columbia.edu, fs2114@columbia.edu, mry5@columbia.edu

Dear Students,

We gain much in the course of difficult situations if we hold ourselves as professionals to the standard of critical, reflective thinking before a rush to judgment occurs. You have voiced concerns about the Capstone Project designed and being conducted by a faculty committee. As you know, the Capstone Project has become part of the School's tradition. It is an enormous, earnest undertaking by the faculty committee, aimed at enabling all second-year students to apply two years of knowledge and skills towards the demonstration of your best professional selves.

I invite you to meet with the Capstone Committee to dialogue about the issues that are of concern. Here, facts are all important, as is an awareness of the nature of narratives and how we and others utilize ourselves. Indeed, herein may well be the greatest and most valuable lessons for all. Once the conversation, exploration, and ascertaining of facts have been completed, we all will be on much more sure footing, factually, ethically, and professionally. Until then, out of respect for Eli Painted Crow and ALL parties concerned and in the interest of not inflaming a situation without pertinent and pivotal information, please refer all communications from Eli Painted Crow to the Capstone Committee. Your faculty committee is ever mindful of the difference between intent and impact and seeks to work with you. Dean Yoshioka or the Committee will follow this email with dates and times for a meeting.

Best,
Dean Takamura

 

 

April 24, 2010

September 2, 2011

 

 

Hello Marion and Kalima:

 

In response to the “as you know” email I must confess that I don’t know. I understood this to be a conversation that would be followed up with a possible trip to talk to a class but that never happened.

 

First of all I don’t know what Capstone Project means and I’m not all that familiar with university language. I understood a classroom, not an entire graduating class of 400 students. I am taken aback by this and very shocked to learn all of this by a student making a request and by Anu's phone call regarding this.

 

I also didn’t know that Helen Benedict apparently was presenting my life story as a "novel"??? This is what I understand from students. If this was so, how is it the University would consider this as textbook material?

 

I am shocked and dismayed that this novel or textbook (whatever seems to be appropriate to Helen for the moment) could be seen as 100 percent accurate. For her to allow me to be used and dissected like a lab rat knowing the implications of harm based on our rocky and conflictual relationship takes her behavior to another level of exploitation. To have 400 students present their analysis of me as a kind of masters project that assesses and treats my life using only Helen's description of me (usually complimentary but occasionally factually inaccurate). Her descriptions of my emotions about my life say more about her than they do about me.

 

It was assumed that I knew more about this project than I did. There was never a request in writing asking for permission to use me as a passive subject for such a psychologically invasive process. While I do wish to meet with these students, I really don’t want this project to continue. It is highly unethical and the staff should be mortified that it has gone this far.

 

How am I to feel that 400 students will make public their assessment, diagnosis, and treatment recommendations without my consent? HIPAA Law states that a treatment plan is covered by the law of confidentiality. How is possible that a living person could be used for this without her written consent?

 

To be used in a book written by a journalist who appears interested only in exploiting us veterans for personal gain and fame and who calls herself an expert with no military experience is painful enough. Turning this into textbook material is unconscionable. As a former social worker myself, I have dealt with many levels of oppression: racism, classism and sexism to name a few. All these involve systematic dehumanization. In the process of meeting professional goals and objectives, human lives are traumatized by the very system that sets out to help them. Mine is a case in point.

I’m not a licensed social worker but my life experience helped obtain these jobs and I worked in this field for many years. If this is what this University is teaching then I’m glad I did not follow through with my education. I find this action unethical, invasive and disrespectful to my being: my spirit feels fragmented and is greatly damaged.

 

 I could have been open to such a huge project had I been involved from beginning to end. My passion is helping veterans and helping others understand us from a place of pain that could lead to some healing. This is not the way to go about it. Having one staff person have one conversation after this project was already underway does not make it okay.

 

I am extremely shocked and furious as it now becomes clear to me that a diagnosis and treatment plans for my life are now in the hands of 400 students who have never even met me.

 

This needs to be made right. How will this be done as the Capstone Project is now nearly complete?

 

I do accept your invitation to address the graduating class. I also wish to have a separate meeting with all staff involved. I understood from Anu that the staff “did not wish to traumatize me further” and therefore did not consult me before undertaking the project. Do you think this in itself is not traumatizing?

 

When Columbia Professor of Journalism Helen Benedict took my story I told her I would only do it if some proceeds of every book purchased would be donated to the Service Women’s Action Network (SWAN). She took the story and never made good on her commitment and has proceeded to further exploit me to this point. When I later reminded Professor Benedict of her commitment she simply stated that she wasn’t making any money on the book. She just sold 400 books to your students and is building a professional reputation on the suffering and pain of all military women and women veterans. How do you put a price on that? Is this acceptable professorial behavior? Now I wonder if other schools are following Columbia University’s precedent. Social work is about justice among other things. If there is no justice there can be no peace.

 

I look forward to continuing this discussion.

 

Respectfully,

 

Eli PaintedCrow

 

Eli PaintedCrow

SFC US Army Ret.

Activist for Peace, Activist for Soldiers

 

 

April 24, 2010

September 2, 2011

 

Dear Sasha:

Thank you for contacting me about this situation. It seems that your university’s graduating project is already challenging the integrity and strength of every individual involved. All the students who will leave this school of social work with letters behind their name and every staff member who promoted this and allowed this to move forward.

 I understand the fear that many students might have to make a wave in the process of completing this course and I am sorry to throw the wrench in the spoke and to stand up for the respect and dignity of my life, and to so soon bring a real world situation to your hearts and minds before leaving the university. I invite you to relook what you have learned and what you are now practicing and determine whether this situation is considered professional conduct becoming of a university and its students. Did any student ever ask if I there was written permission to allow this project to move forward?   First rule is get permission in writing isn’t that what you’re taught? This goes to show you that you can’t trust a system designed to instill the ethics and professionalism required by the social work standard. It doesn’t get much better out there. I consider this excellent practice.

I am sure that time, money and all the hard work that has been done by 400 students might look at this and say what’s the big deal?  And continue with the process to step out into the world and practice all they have been taught.  Really what is this teaching everyone now? That I am a commodity worth dismissing? That my life doesn’t deserve the respect as a human being because it is teaching you all something? What is it you all are learning? How to ignore this situation so that everyone can move forward in your lives? That integrity and ethics only works in theory but won’t really matter in the real world?

I ask you these questions not to judge anyone for I know this is a difficult challenge in the minds of many.  What I will ask of all to look inside. I would say that you could ask your spirits but the education system is much like the military. It teaches conformity and if you stray from that then you cannot be counted amongst those who have earned the title of social workers. It steals your spirit and replaces it with fear, zealousness, ambition and or self importance in some cases.

Many of you have whole heartedly entered this field for the simple reason of healing the personal wounds you all carry. To give away heals the heart, somewhere there it sometimes gets lost. My medicine teacher once told me we go into the field to heal ourselves. I believe it is true. For some the wounds of the past will always keep the boat from rocking too far in any direction and that’s okay. Some don’t have it to take this step. This kind of work is not for everyone.

I am sure that every social worker envisions the change and difference they will make in the world and that is very important.  I hope you all walk out with a personal level of integrity because the thing about integrity is that “it is what you do when no one is looking that counts” because the only one who will know is you. I was taught integrity means without stain. We can’t be perfect but we can work to keep the stains to a minimum. Truth comes in many forms and does not support our systems in place. Conformity to society is essential to keep this broken system working the way it does. Sometimes there is a tipping point in some situation that can be life changing. That happens every now and again. I have asked the department to stop this project, and while I doubt that my voice alone will help or stop anything. What I do know is that you all have had a wounding experience while in school and kept silent about it just to get through it.  I know in my heart that students see and experience many things that are painful and confusing while being taught how to conform to societies rules in order to be deemed successful. I’m half a century old and some battle you fight some you walk away from. It will all come full circle in the end this I know this to be true.

 While I can’t make the project stop dead in its tracks, I can say that I hope the students realize how painful this is to be used as a lab rat to 400 hundred students. At least a lab rat is in the lab when it is being dissected me I have nowhere near that privilege.  Can anyone walk in my shoes with 400 assessments, diagnoses and treatment plans and still feel whole? Do you really think I want to be the identified lab rat using my real name and my life as told by another for this project? We could have figured out a way to do it if I had been approached before it started and been involved so you could know the real me. Not Helen’s version of my misinterpreted emotions that she assumed I was feeling.  Really she victimizes me more than how I see myself. I was too mentally unstable at the time of the interview to relook at her work for editing so she printed it the way she saw fit. She is an example of someone who has gained much from military women’s pain through exploitation.  If Columbia is allowed to do this it will set precedence for other universities to do the same?, if it’s not happening already. Not cool !!!

There will be many instances in which you will be asked to turn away from what is happening to someone for the sake of the system you will be operating under. Some of you will do it but all of you will think about it. Some of you will be called trouble makers for not allowing the system to remain broken and rise to the occasion. It takes courage, passion and conviction to be a damn good social worker. Fear is not part of the equation. The lives of many people will be impacted by your acts, as my life story is in the hands of 400 students.  Do you think the diagnoses and assessments won’t affect me? Would it affect anyone who has that many (400) diagnosis treatment plans????? Isn’t this available to other students? Like for public use???? How many of you like going to one therapist knowing your info is in that folder?

I personally feel that students should be refunded their money and that the university be held accountable for not realizing that using a person with their real name and life told by another be the subject of scrutiny as being unethical. This is very is very disheartening to me to know that Columbia University breaks the very rules they teach. 

Admiration for my life means nothing if no one has learned from it. I am always told how much I am respected; does this act seem respectful to the students?  I was told a long time ago that I needed to be the example of the life I wanted around me and while there were times in my life I didn’t respect myself once I understood this  I have  worked to become the example to my family, my community and to all my relations. This includes every student whose life I have touched whether it was directly or indirectly. I will say the same to all of you; be the example of what you want around in your lives.

You are all the future. Your work in the world will affect all nine of my grandchildren and the next seven generations to follow. That is if we survive on the planet that long. There are 400 hundred voices and I have accepted to come and speak as I have been invited by the university to the graduation ceremony for the closing for now anyway. Feeling quite a bit tokenized by this last minute invitation.  They may retract the invitation once they read the letter I will be sending them. I would still like to come none the less.

 I will speak truth to power whether there are other voices speaking next to me or whether I am alone. I don’t know how to do it any different anymore.  I will respect the choices every student makes; for some the fear will be too great to face. For others money will be the deciding factor. Some of you will stand and be heard and will feel the grips of the system tugging at your core and your own knowing. Those of you who step up will feel the power of true freedom. But alas all choices have a price to pay. I have paid mine and the students will have to carry this in their heart from this day forward. I promise that you will walk away with a memory to last a lifetime. Everyone gets to choose which memory they will hold in their hearts.

I cannot tell anyone what is the right thing to do. Each person must make that choice for themselves. I am very grateful for your support and I can assure you this is a life lesson for all those involved. Social Work addresses justice as one of the many facets of the work. I work for Peace. There is no Peace if there is no justice.

Perhaps this is nothing more to be done but how does the university make it right and how do we make sure it never happens again? How will the students make this right? I don’t want 400 stories about me from people who don’t even know me and will meet me after it’s all over.  I should have been formally invited a long time ago before this ever got started. Not at the end. Sending all the students blessings at this moment for your lives and for your futures.

Peace.

Eli PaintedCrow

Eli PaintedCrow

SFC US Army Ret.

Advocate for Peace, Advocate for Soldiers

 

 

 

President of Student Union

September 2, 2011
Ms. PaintedCrow,

I hope this message finds you well. My name is Sasha Ahuja and I am a graduating student at the School of Social Work at Columbia University and the President of our Student Union. Like many others, I have been so moved by your narrative and your words, both before and after reading Lonely Soldier, and am reaching out to you to verify the following information that I heard through the grapevines.

I was told by a friend that members of her group contacted you with regards to the use of your photo for the purpose of the Capstone final project that we have all been assigned to complete. She informed me that you had said responded saying that you were not aware that your story was being used for the purpose of this assignment. After spending two years at this school and seeing the extent to which systems of oppression are perpetuated in harmful ways towards the very individuals, communities, stories and narratives that we hope to learn from with honor and respect, the fact that you were not informed of your story being used for this final student project is so deeply upsetting. I am sorry that we, the students, were not informed of this earlier.

If this is all the case, I am reaching out to you to ask how we can proceed. I know that if more students are aware of the above information, they will choose not to proceed with the assignment. I would love to speak with you at length about this if you have the capacity. I am more than happy to speak on the phone (516 698 7157 - or at a number that I can reach you) or via e-mail.

I hope to hear from you at your convenience.

In peace and strength,


 

On 4/22/2011 10:39 AM, Marion Riedel wrote:

September 2, 2011
 Dear Eli-
 The capstone committee would be honored if you would consider coming to The School of Social Work at Columbia University in New York to be a part of our closing panel for the capstone project. This is a project that all graduating students (about 400) participate in. We have 39 student groups this year that are charged to write a paper and prepare a poster presentation based on the narratives in the Lonely Soldier and, particularly, your story. We are attaching the guide we have asked them to use to prepare their posters.
 
 The finale is on May 6--with a poster presentation from 10-12 and the closing ceremonies from 2-4. We would love for you to speak at the closing ceremony and would invite you also to come view the posters, if you like. It would be a terrific learning experience for the students to hear your response to their work and to hear you story in your own words. No doubt the past two years have also changed your perspective on your experiences and hearing about this would greatly add to their process.
 Please let us know if this is a possibility and if we might talk further about the particulars.
 
 Thanks so much for considering this and we look forward to talking to you further. 
 
 Best,
 Marion and the Capstone Committee
 

April 20,2010

September 2, 2011

April 20,2010

Dear Ms. Paintedcrow:

I am a student at Columbia University School of Social Work. The graduating class is currently assigned to study and understand you, propose pathways to better support returning women veterans, and become intimately familiar with your journey. Part of the project involves making a poster. I wonder if you can send me a high-resolution photo of yourself to include? You and I are about the same age, I have been struck by the very different trajectories our lives have taken that have led to the social work profession. I was a graphic designer (hence my responsibility for making the poster), artsy NY pacifist type. Are you able to share a little insight over your most significant resources to inner peace since you have returned? Also, will your drumming group ever come to the NY area? Please know that myself and every classmate I know has been in awe of your strength, your conviction and your ability to manage so many things at once. I hope we will meet one day somewhere.

With great admiration,

Stephanie Perell

 

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